IS VITAMIN D REALLY BAD FOR US?

[GitOverIt]

Hi everyone!!! Miss me? :D
we had some bad storms in our area and our broadband modem got zonked!
We had to go on a wait list as comcast was busy with all kinds of problems (but I didn't care..... darn it....... I wanted it fixed NOW!) it took a week....can you imagine being without a computer for a week?

here is something I thought was interesting for all our vitamin D takers...just shows how studies can be misinterperted and easily deceivable to the public if someone isn't on their toes checking!

Is vitamin D really bad for you?


You probably know that I'm a huge fan of vitamin D. After all the great information I've told you about it, I'm sure you're a big fan too. But not everyone is. A brand-new study says vitamin D and calcium are bad for your brain.

The authors did MRI scans on elderly subjects. They found that those who took more calcium and vitamin D were far more likely to have brain lesions in the MRI scans.

How can this be? After all I've told you about vitamin D, is it really bad for you?

Well, some of what these researchers found was right on target. But they missed the real cause of cognitive impairment. Let me explain.

Dr. Martha Payne from Duke led this study. Her previous studies demonstrated that high-fat dairy products increased the risk of brain lesions. But these studies also found that it wasn't the fat causing the problem. So Dr. Payne looked deeper. And now she's implicating calcium and vitamin D in vitamin D fortified foods.

She's absolutely right. But that still doesn't mean vitamin D is bad for you.

You see, dairy is fortified with vitamin D2. That's the synthetic form. It's not a healthy substance, and you shouldn't put it in your body. I don't even like to refer to it as vitamin D. If you are looking for vitamin D, be sure that it's the natural form - vitamin D3. But that's not the biggest problem with this study.

The biggest problem is that high-fat dairy foods are typically homogenized. This is a prescription for disaster. Your body uses bile to break down fat. Then it sends it to your liver for proper processing. Homogenization breaks up the fat into tiny particles. These particles are so tiny that they can get absorbed directly into your lymph and blood, bypassing the protective effects of your liver. This is totally against your body's physiology.

Furthermore, homogenized fat contains an enzyme called xanthine oxidase, a known destroyer of your arteries. Homogenization deprives your liver of the opportunity to detoxify this enzyme before it can damage your arteries.

Thanks to this study, you'll now hear the press tell you calcium and vitamin D are dangerous. But they neglected to tell you which vitamin D is involved and the impact of homogenization.

I've always believed dairy is for baby cows. You don't see baby cows homogenizing and pasteurizing what comes from mom's teat. But we do. That said, I do eat small amounts of organic fermented dairy and a bit of organic raw cheese. Don't be afraid to do the same if the rest of your diet is healthy. I can't deny that there is some benefit in eating dairy protein, especially for vegetarians. But if you drink milk or dairy products, make sure it's organic and raw.

And definitely keep taking your vitamin D3. Most people are deficient and need to take up to 5,000 mg daily. My favorite brand is Healthy Resolve. It comes in 5,000 mg tablets, so you have to take only one pill a day - instead of the usual five.

Yours for better health and medical freedom,
Robert Jay Rowen, MD

Ref: "High Calcium and Vitamin D Intakes Associated With Higher Risk of Cognitive Impairment in Elderly," Science Daily, May 2, 2007.

[grannyfranny]

Thank you,,Sally,,I was getting worried about you. Our Internet and TV cable has been messing up lately and I WANT MY NEWS!!!!!!!!!

[mcordy77]

that's why both BJ and I keep pushing D3 (cholecalciferol) which is the BEST form of D, and not D2 (ergocalciferol) which is really both inneffective and a lousy manufactured chemical (Deltalin) pushed by Eli Lilly and Company as a "beneficial" D in milk (also found in cheap D supplements and inexpensive multivitamins).

D2 is synthetic, and STILL needs sunlight to be activated by the body into...you guessed it...D3!

So take the D3 to begin with! (no sunlight required)

Also glad to report, I never liked milk :)

Mark

[bjmacc]

hi sally...welcome back...

I think i posted this before...the article is wrong...D2 is not in milk..

http://vitamind.ucr.edu/milk.html

At the present time almost all milk sold commercially in the United States has 400 IU of chemically synthesized vitamin D3 added per quart. Any vendor of milk for human consumption containing added vitamin D3 is required by the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) to include a notice on the milk carton label. Usually this label states "400 IU of added vitamin D3". However it is not required by law to indicate either the manufacturer of the added vitamin D3 or the sources of the cholesterol and 7-dehydrocholesterol used for its production.

I'm trying to find some numbers on that study ,so far it was a study on depression and the elderly..60-86 ...half were diagnosed as depressed..the calcium numbers and Vitamin D numbers made no mention of supplements or dosages that i can find..just consumption of dairy...well even dairy doesn't have high levels of D..100 iu in a glass of milk..and calcium ...i thing a glass of milk is 300 mg....something doesn't fit...

Now, interesting enough..in the same month and journal there was published another study lamenting the low calcium levels amongst the elderly

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/85/5/1361

...i'll keep looking...because i'm as intrigued by poor science as well as good science.


bj

[AnnieB]

Sounds to me like Dr. Payne is speculating on what possibly caused those legions and is suggesting Vitamin D and calcium--since an increase in other sorts of fat doesn't seem to increase legions. At the same time, Robert Rowen is ALSO simply speculating on what HE thinks caused it...homogenization of dairy products. So I don't find either theory totally convincing...yet.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/555904

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070501115230.htm

"In earlier studies, Dr. Payne's team had found that individuals who consumed more high-fat dairy products had more brain lesions than those who did not follow such a diet but that fat intake in general was not a significant factor. If not the fat, the researchers asked, what was it about a high fat dairy diet that accounts for the positive correlation with brain lesions?"

[bjmacc]

I agree annie...you would have thought that if MRI 's were taken..a simple blood test would have shed some light on vitamin D and calcium levels and given some support on the reporting techniques and accuracy.

[PaulKensington]

Hello,

I think I noted in another post that I read vitamin D could be dangerous in excess (over 900 units) due to calcium accumulation in the kidneys, heart and other organs.

Apparently natural foods tend to contain not just vitamins, but a balance of other factors too, which enables your body to derive the best benefit.

I understand that there are reasons for processing milk, just as there are reasons why people cook food (both because of health risks), even though the processing and cooking depletes nutrients. Raw milk is apparently dangerous for some and is legally quite hard to acquire in some countries. (Having said that, it might be nice to have the choice of raw milk, with a suitable warning displayed).

I looked at a few of bj's posts. I think the long term risk of some everyday substances like ibuprofen might not be well studied, but the benefits in comparison to some of the conventional medicines might well outweigh the risks. Thanks for your kindness posting these bj.

Paul

[guri]

Thank you all, especially Sally & Dulane for your generosity. The information you share I happily read and appreciate. Super simple, yummy left-over-using recipe below.

Have been doing Close-to-Pagano for several months. Already had stopped gluten. Had lived over 20 years with no refined sugar...... finally fell of that wagin with a thunk! Now occasionally have somehting sweetened with a little sugar. No 'fast food', ie McDonalds. After reading here, no nightshades, except for a couple goofs.... at a celebration, saw baba ganoush and said to myself, 'Aha self! Something I love & can eat!' Of course, it's eggplant. Oh well. And some foods have tomatoe/peppers which I fish out, but of course ingested the essence.
Have been in touch w Gary & got remedies from him. Actually, Psorolin has helped; had paradoxical response to 777 when I used it: spots that were clearing got worse on application of 777. The Psorolin, his supplement capsules, fish oil, milk thistle have worked well, so I never again used the 777. Anyone have any suggestion on this?
BTW, saw Derm, a Doc I like very much, in her eighties. she suggested three days of Clorbetone [sp?] After coming back to this list and seeing strong possibility of bounce back, I didn't.

So, in honor of you-all, esp Sally, here is what I think is a P-friendly Recipe. Didn't see Recipe Board. Sorry if that's an oversight on my part.


Yummy Pasta Salad [Gluten Free; uses left-overs]

Ingredients:
Sweet Potatoe or Rice vermiccelli [I used the Sweet Pot. Taste/texture similar to the rice noodles.]
Cabbage
celery
other vegetables if you choose
sesame oil
cooked/leftover chicken or fish,
or marinated tofu* [directions for marinating tofu below].
Capers

Method: Put uncooked noodles in bowl.
Boil water, and cover noodles w boiled water and let sit for 10 minutes.
While it sits, thinly slice cabbage into shreds, same for celery, carrots, summer squash, sweet potato, other veggies would work too.

When pasta is ready, drain.

Optional & suggested: this is easier to eat if pasta is in smaller piece. It cuts more easily after cooking. Take your kitchen shears, and cut pasta in pot, rotate pot, cut in other direction, about 10 cuts or so per direction gets pasta to about 2 inch lengths.

Lightly salt the pasta [for some reason, with rice/sweet pot pasta, I think it tastes better salted after cooking.]


Add Sesame oil to still warm pasta, mix. Cut capers--the larger are more flavorful-- over the pasta, so any juice drips into pasta adding to the rich flavor, and add capers. Then add veggies, chicken or fish or marinated tofu.

Enjoy!!!

*To Marinate Tofu: Drain liquid from Tofu. Press tofu. This can be done by having a brick wrapped in Aluminum foil.
Put weight, ie, wrapped brick/heavy can [ for example of tomatoes. A use for the canned tomatoes some of us have on a shelf!] on tofu, let drain as long as works for you.
Once drained, tofu quickly accepts new flavor, doesn't need long marinade. Simply sprinkling with [wheat free if necessary] soy sauce and adding some ginger gives a luscious flavor.

[GitOverIt]

hi guri! I posted your recipe in the anti-inflammatory recipe section :D sounds like a good one ...I'll have to try it and let everyone know....(once I get all the ingredients together)

http://www.psoriasis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=24739&page=3

[RichJ]

hi gurl,
sorry i can't help much but welcome to the p family. you have met some of the wonderful people on here and will find alot of great info. welcome and nice to meet you.

have a good weekend all

richard

[guri]

Hi, Sally,

good idea, thanks.

i came back today to find that recip! I didn't write it down, and will be a quick one to make for friends with our leftover chicken this evening!
I tried another version with mung bean thread and grill roasted veggies. Used olives cut up... The roasted veggie flaver just didn't work. A thumbs down!

I have two on-going questions....
Source of Saflower/Saffron tea other than China? Our store only buys from sources they have a relationship with there now. I do have plenty other teas.

Also, I found the scent of777 difficult, and it un-did the healing I'd had with the Psorolin in one place. Just me?

And, are you still clear? delighted for you if you are!
best,

[GitOverIt]

Hi Guri I just answered you in the clearing thread.....and gave where to buy both teas ......American saffron is what you want...does China have American saffron :D

also yes I am pretty clear......maybe 95% I have 3 spots on hairline that didn't clear when everything else did and one ear (inside) but it isn't bad.
I ran out of Psorolin last early spring and have been waiting for Gary's new product with a higher percentage of wrightia.......no petroleum in the new ointment!

it is called Psorayur...the first shipment is 100 jars and will be on his web site in a day or two (or you can call now and pre order to make sure you get one of the first)

[WhoaTrigger]

Hi Sally, glad you survived the storms.

I have a question regarding Vitamn D. I take 2-3 grams of fish oil capsules a day. I've never taken cod liver oil, probably for silly reasons. I'm worried about mercury content, although I know it can be tested or filtered or some such thing to make it safe. My question is this...Now that the daylight is lessening and I live in a northern climate where it's unlikely I will get much sunlight this winter, I want to take vitamin D supplements.
So the best kind is Vitamin D3 (cholecaliferol)? Can I continue to take the fish oil with it?
Also, I wonder why it's only cod that is used for liver oil. Why not other species? Any ideas?

[mcordy77]

D3 from cod liver oil is a bad idea. Too much Vitamin A. Too many toxins.

Read here...D3 tablets do not raise serum blood levels of D.
http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/search/label/vitamin%20D

The oil based D3 from Jarrow or a whole foods store will work best to raise D blood levels.

And yes...you can safely take D3 with fish (body) oil (as opposed to fish liver oil).

Lastly...I fell across this site tonight...and my jaw dropped.
Check it out.

the first map shows the amount of sunlight one can expect to recieve each year county by county in the US. The next four maps show the rates of breast, colon and ovarian cancers as well as MS by county.

WOW.
http://www.sunarc.org/index.htm

Mark

[bjmacc]

great link mark...you look at these maps and wonder...what does it take?

bj

[blairmary]

I am a little confused about how to take all these supplements. I started a week ago taking the Barney Formula and was wondering how much D3 should I take. My D3 comes in 600 units plus my multivitamin says it contains 400 units of vitamin D plus I take calcium Plus D and it contains 400 units of Vitamin D. I have read that it needs to be D3 so should I take another D3 tablet of 600 units. I am so afraid of taking too much. Plus I have read in other readings that taking the Ibuprohen is not good for Psoriasis. What do you say. I am new to this board and I have tried to many things for my Psoriasis. I just want some help for this dreaded disease. How long will it take for me to see some improvement. I am mainly concerned with my face and neck. I have so much redness and flakeness . Any advice would be appreciated. Mary in Alabama

[NYGuy11]

Excellent article Sally, thanks.

Mark...that link...WOW!

[NYGuy11]

I am a little confused about how to take all these supplements. I started a week ago taking the Barney Formula and was wondering how much D3 should I take. My D3 comes in 600 units plus my multivitamin says it contains 400 units of vitamin D plus I take calcium Plus D and it contains 400 units of Vitamin D. I have read that it needs to be D3 so should I take another D3 tablet of 600 units. I am so afraid of taking too much. Plus I have read in other readings that taking the Ibuprohen is not good for Psoriasis. What do you say. I am new to this board and I have tried to many things for my Psoriasis. I just want some help for this dreaded disease. How long will it take for me to see some improvement. I am mainly concerned with my face and neck. I have so much redness and flakeness . Any advice would be appreciated. Mary in Alabama

Read this link: http://psoriasis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=22725

As for Vitamin D, you should be taking Vitamin D3, where you get 1000 iu PER PILL. All you need to do is take 1 Vitamin D3 pill with 1000 iu in it. That's it.

Ibuprofen is NOT bad for psoriasis...many of us take it with Barney's Formula.

[mcordy77]

Mary,

Most any health food or natural food store (such as Whole Foods) will carry D3 (cholecalciferol) in 1000 IU (or 400IU) GELCAPS.

The gelcaps (oil based D3) are much better absorbed and are known to be better than tablets at raising blood level D3.

As for D2 (ergocalciferol) commonly found in vitamins such as One-A-Day, and sold in drug stores in tablet form as a supplement...well...a noted cardiologist, Dr. Davis, suggests that D2, which is a man-made drug (therefore patentable) best belongs in the trash. "By the way, I've seen people taking vitamin D2 preparations, called "ergocalciferol," who are every bit as deficient as those who take no vitamin D at all. Avoid D2 or ergocalciferol preparations: they're worthless."

Make a trip to a health food store (or Jarrow.com) and get yourself D3 Gelcaps!

Mark

[WhoaTrigger]

Thanks for the links Mark. I am convinced, and it's to the health food store to get some Vitamin D3 gel capsules! The research is overwhelming that we in the north are probably low in it. Wonder why our docs don't know this...

[mcordy77]

WhoaTrigger,

I have seen more and more pages (Science Watch being the latest) that say D2 is not worth one red cent for us...yet it is in most multi-vitamins...and every bottle of D in the drug stores..is either D2 or crappy D3 tablets.
All the "fat-soluable" vitamins, such as A and E...come in what????
GELCAPS! Why no D3 in the stores that way??? I am completely aghast..

Then.. I fall across that link with the UVB rays vs. cancer rates...My jaw dropped to the floor.

To scary for words.
Good enough to post again...
http://www.sunarc.org/index.htm

2000IU of D3 gelcaps for me every day!

mark

[th1amigo]

Psoriasis can be successfully treated:
http://tinyurl.com/39ryhk
http://bacteriality.com/2007/08/10/interview1/
http://bacteriality.com/2007/10/06/interview4/
http://bacteriality.com/2007/10/31/blaney/

Read patient 5, especially, re Psoriasis:
http://winmlm.neostrada.pl/mp/townsend/Townsend_Letter_May2007.Part2.pdf

The truth about Vitamin D:
http://winmlm.neostrada.pl/vitamindbook/vitamindnewresearch.pdf
http://bacteriality.com/2007/09/15/vitamind/
http://autoimmunityresearch.org/karolinska-handout.pdf
http://tinyurl.com/5v5gu
http://tinyurl.com/4bere
http://bacteriality.com/2007/10/24/brain_lesions/
http://tinyurl.com/6reeq

[bjmacc]

The majority of people in the northern latitudes have a deficit of Vitamin D..Since your body does make it from sunlight, it is actually not a vitamin..but assuming it is, because you make it shows how natural it is.

Unless you are an Inuit living on fish and seal liver in the arctic, or a lifeguard in mexico, you do not get enough vitamin D. You do not get enough vitamin D from sunlight in northern or far southern climes...it is not in most foods and in insufficient quantities in diet.. Studies show most in the uk, and across canada and the US have a deficit or low levels.

I have multiple links if you would like them showing how vitamin D lowers risk of many cancers, heart disease, osteoporosis and diabetes. These are not anecdotes but sound scientific research. Recent research has found a 70% reduction in some cancers and a 50% reduction in breast cancer with adequate dosage.http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/09/070910162408.htm

The canadian cancer society just issued an advisory that every healthy adult canadian should take at least 1000iu/day..thats 25mcg/day.

I will leave you with one link...http://www.vitamindcouncil.com/
This is a website developed by scientists, researchers, phd's and md's...they sell nothing and give knowledge for free...read it and get an accurate picture of Vitamin D rather then misinformation.

Unfortunately, most doctors aren't up to speed on vitamin d and recent literature.. When was the last time a doctor suggested vitamin D or a test? The subject is relatively new, the metabolism of vitamin D wasn't discovered until 1969 at the university of wisconson.. There has been a race to find a patentable analog so drug companies can make a profit...such as dovonex.. but because it so cheap, it is not marketed or promoted. This is why these scientists had to build a websight..not to make money...but to pass on knowledge.

Regarding safety, Vitamin D is one of the most maligned compounds in history..only a small percentage can't take supplemental Vitamin D or must stay out of the sun. This is because the disease they may have (sarcoidosis, some lyphomas, hyperparathyroidism and a few others) makes too much vitamin D and any additional may cause high calcium ..A vitamin D calcidiol blood test is always advisable..it will give you a baseline and tell you where you are at.

The safe upper limit guidelines are 2000iu (50mcg)/day...but many researchers suggest this limit should be 10,000/day...such at in the following paper this past march.

An urgent need to recommend an intake of Vitamin D that is effective.from scientists all over the world (look at the names and universities under the title)

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/85/3/649

and from that paper..

"A recent review in this Journal applied the risk assessment method used by the Food and Nutrition Board to update the safe tolerable upper intake level (UL) for vitamin D . The method focuses on the risk of hypercalcemia. The conclusion was that the UL for vitamin D consumption by adults should be 10,000iu/day


In the near future and in the depths of winter....in this forum i suggest you will see some good reports about vitamin D and psoriasis...it is cheap, safe and effective...and will add health , better spirits and years to your life.

bj

[th1amigo]

Vitamin D is a steroid hormone precursor. And we all know what steroids do - make you feel better .... in the short term, not long-term. Their immunosuppressive effects cure nothing, I'm afraid. My spouse and I live in northern climate. Our D levels were dysregulated. We've eliminated all exogenous Vitamin D, lowered the 25-D to levels considered "deficient" and we are finding relief from chronic illness, as are many others with various chronic conditions. With all the supplementation of Vitamin D in our food supply, our societies are seeing nothing but an increase in chronic disease, not a decrease.

Has anyone considered the "scientific" literature that stated that ulcers were caused by many things (other than bacteria)? In the end, it took a couple of researchers the guts to prove that it was bacteria behind ulcers and they were ridiculed - they won the Nobel Prize decades later. All the so-called "scientific" literature out there rarely makes mention of measuring the active 1,25-D metabolite, so I, as others are noting, find it hard to swallow the accuracy of their "research". Hundreds, if not thousands, are now ridding themselves of their diseases and they're doing this as part of their disease by eliminating Vitamin D. All the Vitamin D supplementation has cured no one. The Vitamin D industry (including the Council) stands to lose a lot .... reputations and $$$.

[bjmacc]

Vitamin D is a natural steroid..your body makes it..your body needs it and is not getting enough as suggested by the following paper.

These scientists all from over the world..... look under the title and see the wealth of information and education they represent..from universities workwide...It simplistic to think they are in it for the money.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/85/3/649

bj

[th1amigo]

That article proves my point - they didn't bother to measure the active metabolite and are basing their conclusions simply on the precursor....that is, supplementing based an incomplete picture - fact remains, many are recovering from their chronic illnesses by eliminating D altogether, including psoriasis and my spouse and I are only two (we know now how the current beliefs are wrong) - time will show that the currently-accepted beliefs on D intake are not alleviating chronic disease but increasing it! What a huge mistake!

[Dulane]

Wow, interesting info th1amigo!

Good thread. I was recently found to have low D levels and told to take more D3. I was taking about 2000 IU, but told to increase that to 4000 IU daily.

But if one had sarcoidosis, Vit D could be a bad way to go.

There was a lady who posted last year who may have had sarcoidosis. She was terribly light sensitive, but thought her skin condition and arthritis was P and PA. She'd been ruled out for lupus and other auto-immunes.

And there are some strong links to sarcoidosis and P...or having both conditions at the same time.

And to fungal conditions, too.

That is interesting that there are bacteria called cell-wall-deficient. They may be much harder to detect.

Candida can change its shape and morph into a dormant state when treated minimally with antibiotics and anti-fungals.

I think many of us have come into contact with fungal organisms that increase the likelyhood of disease.

I still think that P is one of these diseases with a fungal or bacterial component.

When I got very sick, we were living in an ancient leaky trailer...and building our new house. I really think that the mold situation contributed to my illness.

Good food for thought here!

:rolleyes:

[bjmacc]

amigo...few people in the northern hemisphere get sufficient vitamin D, this has been verified...few take a D supplement and there is only a small amount in food...your ideas simply don't follow facts.....there are maps showing a higher incidence of cancer and chronic disease the farther north and the lower vitamin D intake which is at odds with your claims

the latest findings simply refute what you say..

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/09/070910162408.htm

There are a few diseases which i have previously listed where you can not take additional sun or a supplement but this is a small percentage of the population...Sarcoidosis (which my sister has) and some lymphomas(cancers) and hyperparathyrodisim...These are a few diseases where cells related to the disease make too much calcitriol (high test vitamin D)and can result in high calcium but this is certainly not the norm...

Proves your point??? show , me one scientific link where normal people are eliminating chronic disease by limiting Vitamin D.

Did you read the list of scientists under the title of my first link, a very impressive group from around the world..and they are all wrong?...No, i'm afraid your theory is wrong.

bj

[bjmacc]

I have been instructed by the mods to edit my posts. It seems they believe i am argumentative and rude..I disagree, .but its their forum..

you said..
"Are there some folks (a relatively small percentage) that suffer from a vitamin D deficiency? Probably"



http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071219.wvitamin19/BNStory/specialScienceandHealth/home
quote..Vitamin D tests conducted on a group of University of Toronto students have found that virtually all non-whites had insufficient levels of the sunshine vitamin, putting them at elevated risk of debilitating diseases such as osteoporosis, cancer and diabetes.

The research, which is awaiting publication in a medical journal, found that 100 per cent of those of African origin were short of vitamin D, as were 93 per cent of South Asians (those of Indian or Pakistani origin), and 85 per cent of East Asians (those of Chinese, Indochinese or Filipino origin, among other countries).endquote

It was an attempt to undercut the move by the canadian cancer society' suggestion every healthy Canadian should take 1000iu of vitamin D/day...This was in reaction to the June announcement by Dr Heaney and others that in their research vitamin D in sufficient doses reduced cancer by up to 70% in a group of i forget...1200 older women..

The Americans hired a researcher to look at a previous American long term study done from 1988 to 1994 on nutrition and national general health In the original study on nutrition, vitamin d was only one many values taken. It dealt with diet, a host of blood levels, nutrition etc.

There was one blood test over the seven year study.. and it was taken from the back of a van...because it was from a van..the blood test could not be taken in the northern part of the US in the winter due to the cold. No measurement was taken in the winter when levels would be low..Any detailed look at the study would convince any scientist or researcher the results and any conclusion were in question. But it made the Americans look like they didn't miss the boat on vitamin D.....by concluding "the question is still out"

Vitamin d has proven to help in ones health...and as far as psoriasis...well, let me say,,,this winter will prove many things...I am very optimistic.

.These are scientists from universities all over the world...look at their names, their credentials......they are not prone to rumor, profit or foolishness.

An urgent need to recommend an intake of Vitamin D that is effective.from scientists all over the world

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/85/3/649

bj...merry christmas

[bjmacc]

One blood test in a van over seven years and never in winter..doesn't sound like a convincing study about vitamin D to me..The original study had little to do with vitamin D...you are mixing up the studies..it was the recent interpretation by one PhD that made those claims...compare this to the countless articles and published research supporting Vitamin D by MD's',PhD's and other scientists..


http://www.lewrockwell.com/miller/miller25.html
Vitamin D in a New Light by Donald W. Miller, Jr., MD

http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2007/12/dr-cannell-on-how-much-vitamin-d.html
The Heart Scan Blog: Dr. Cannell on "How much vitamin D?"



I believe the time is very near that vitamin D will be shown to be an effective treatment for psoriasis ...I am getting some good feedback and this winter should tell us more. I am very optimistic..and as they say..the proof is in the pudding

bj...happy new year..and edited

[th1amigo]

Cell wall deficient L-forms are what is causing the dysregulation of the D-metabolites, disabling the VDR and shutting down the immune system ... leading to symptoms and much chronic illness. The VDR is responsible for transcribing thousands of genes. The L-forms are the root cause. Adding more Vitamin D in such patients is fueling the inflammation and the disease. Guss & Reenie have practically recovered on treatment (part of which is eliminating all D until the immune system has dealt a blow to the intraphagocytic organisms and health has been restored, at which point the D-metabolites and other hormones are properly regulated and the VDR is fully functional) but alas, too many continue to suffer the effects of their disease. Everyone's entitled to their opinions. Those who want to continue shutting down their immune system, that's their choice. Oh, here's Guss' previous posts at P.org:

http://tinyurl.com/2y5hs8

...and now...

http://bacteriality.com/2007/08/10/interview1/

There is a way out of your disease. That's my Christmas present to you. Wishing you a Healthy 2008!

[nesielheum]

Happy Christmas Eve and a Merry Christmas to all!

[bjmacc]

you said,,"low level does not equal deficient"

quote from the article......"Some of the levels found - among people from all ethnic groups - were so low that if the students had been infants, they would have been at risk of the debilitating childhood bone disease known as rickets."

i
happy holidays and wishing you a great new year Tim

bj ...edited

[AnnieB]

To sum up: th1amigo is advocating "The Marshall Protocol" which includes reducing Vitamin D intake as part of a regimen to treat many diseases; bjmacc believes that Vitamin D supplementation can help people with P improve their condition and has included it as part of Barney's formula.

[GitOverIt]

Interesting debate!

I'm enjoying it!

[encyclopedia]

I side with BJ. All the studies he refers to are good studies from reputable, mainstream journals. The Marshall Protocol is experimental. The sites tinyurl and bacteriality.com look bogus. If vitamin D is so bad for us why are so many of us trying the Barney formula clearing from their psoriasis?

[RichJ]

I side with BJ. All the studies he refers to are good studies from reputable, mainstream journals. The Marshall Protocol is experimental. The sites tinyurl and bacteriality.com look bogus. If vitamin D is so bad for us why are so many of us trying the Barney formula clearing from their psoriasis?
hi encyclopedia,
thats a good ? and i wish i could answer it. but i can't even figure out all the stuff in the car :eek: . why do they make things so hard to do :eek:

have a wonderful christmas all

richard

[th1amigo]

I know many won't believe what I've been posting, but that's to be expected with anything that contradicts current dogma. After all, so many experts and scientists thought ulcers being caused by bacteria was foolish - ALL of the them were wrong, even after the tons of "scientific" material from "reputed medical journals and studies" which stated otherwise - so much for perfect science from the majority.

Anyway, here is just a whiff of the politics surrounding this - goes to show how controversial it is - if the Vitamin D "experts" really wanted to help ill people, they wouldn't resort to threats and attempts to discredit - to me, it suggests that they have something to lose (tinyurl is used to shorten the URL lengths):

http://tinyurl.com/3dwl9v
http://tinyurl.com/3arurs
http://tinyurl.com/3y4lo8
http://tinyurl.com/3yqwvx
http://tinyurl.com/ysobre

I was also told that there were those in the Vitamin D lobby who had been trying to prevent this publication (glad they failed!):
http://winmlm.neostrada.pl/vitamindbook/vitamindnewresearch.pdf

For those who are interested, here are excellent conference videos:

http://autoimmunityresearch.org/bio21a.ram
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpocxjKJxag
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMn-zUTTHgw

[RichJ]

[/QUOTE]I know many won't believe what I've been posting
i do believe and i believe what others post to

[QUOTE]but that's to be expected with anything that contradicts current dogma.
i don't under stand what dogma is. that's because im not to smart

i want to wish evey one a wounderful chirstmas and happy new year and that im ready to stop postting and reading on here.

richard

[AnnieB]

Everyone loves to bring up that ulcer example, but to me, although it may show that it is hard to buck conventional thinking, it actually demonstrates that science/conventional medicine is willing to change to accommodate new facts and solid research. You will notice that these days doctors accept the findings that found a bacterial cause for ulcers. (Now with some alternative modalities, they are treated as revelation, as if the person who came up with the system could not possibly be wrongs about any aspects of their initial insights.)

[kj422]

th1amigo,

Can you please explain to me why.......

When I increased my vit D supplements, my P is clearing a LOT more than when I was taking no vit D.

I side with BJ!!!

[th1amigo]

kj422, that's easy....Vitamin D is a steroid...think about it ;)

[bjmacc]

exactly kj..the least expensive steroid and biologic we know and the only one we produce naturally from sunlight.

In sufficient doses it can help to safely control psoriasis.

[th1amigo]

As with other steroids, the relief will not be forever as they suppress the immune system and leave the disease to proliferate...feel free to review the material posted when the disease returns with a vengeance.

"It should be remembered that positive short-term effects resulting from vitamin D supplementation would not be beneficial in the long run if these high 1,25D levels are blocking the immune system’s attempts to combat an occult infection underlying the disease. To put it simply, stopping the immune system’s bacterial killing may make the patient feel better, but does not mean they will be healthier in the long run." (from http://winmlm.neostrada.pl/vitamindbook/vitamindnewresearch.pdf)

"Vitamin D is a steroid. It acts upon the Glucocortioid receptor as a ligand, not just during the receptor's expression. Those are the functions of a steroid, not a vitamin. Ingested (or injected) Vitamin D suppresses the immune system, making people feel better in the short-run. In the long-run their disease progresses more rapidly, exactly as if they had been given Dexamethasone. There is one paper a day being published into PubMed exploring the functions of the Vitamin D Receptor, the VDR. I try to keep up with them all. I would hope that the rheumatologist who is putting his faith in Liu, et al, also works through, and comprehends, each and every one of these studies." (from http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum2/2572.html)

http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSCOL95757920070629?sp=true
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21548773/
http://tinyurl.com/2cnj4y
http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum32/3089.html
http://www.marshallprotocol.com/view_topic.php?id=1599&forum_id=32
http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum37/4142.html
http://bacteriality.com/2007/09/15/vitamind/#1

[bjmacc]

latest study on uvb, vitamin D and lung cancer..

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/12/071220235735.htm

and ovarian cancer

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/11/061102092052.htm

[kj422]

While I didn't read all of your articles about vit D, the few I did read are all talking about the relationship between vit D and fighting/preventing cancer. While I can not speak for anyone else, I am not fighting cancer.....just P and the vit D seems to be helping with that. I would much rather take a "natural" steroid then the ones given by the doctors that have crazy side effects!!!

If I may ask, please present your information and let people make their own choices. Your posts have a very argumentative tone and it seems as though you are trying to make people feel bad for the treatments that they have chosen for themselves.

Just remember....."to each his own"

[ouchyk]

Happy Christmas Eve and a Merry Christmas to all!


Hope that you all had a Merry Christmas! Here's to a healthy 2008! :D

[Dulane]

I think there is alot of merit in what Th1amigo has to say. Maybe Vit D isn't the answer for all of us.

Th1amigo isn't any more argumentative than BJ (or others of us) was when he first came here and told us he had something that was working. BJ is well aware that Barney's formula doesn't help all of us.

I have mentioned to BJ on several occassions that some of us have a very 'infectious' component to our condition.

I am one of those people. I've increased my D3 due to the success of BJ's protocol. Also because of my naturopath's sudden interest in D3. I've seen naturopaths for several years and they just jumped on that band wagon in the last year.

Since I started the D3 last spring...my skin has gone down hill. More specifically...this fall and winter. I am not light sensitive to my way of thinking, and the sun last summer really seemed to help.

But I'm going to ask my naturopath what kind of a Vit D test I just had...and ask for the D metabolite test the Marshall Protocol uses.

I am fairly certain that I am still battling with candida or another bacteria...and I need a protocol that addresses killing off these kinds of critters...which the Marshall Protocol attempts to do.

For me...if I eat a handful of cookies or other sweets, I get spots in my mouth and other damp areas. This may not be something that other folks deal with...but I do. Its like the critters take that sugar and flour and run!

Since there is still no cure for psoriasis...I think we should keep our minds open to protocols that work for some people.

In reading through some of the MP info at their website, several people said that their P improved...even tho they were treating for another condition.

People don't have to take sides...just keep your options open.

I've been sort of uninterested in what has been posted here at NPF lately...because it seems like I have tried everything and I've come to a standstill or even regressed. (At least my PA hasn't gotten worse.) Now I have something new to investigate.

Thanks for your attempts to educate us...Th1amigo.

:rolleyes:

[monkeyman1]

interesting info!

[bjmacc]

hi Dulane...i agree with much of what you say...i don't think discussing a topic is being argumentative and i certainly can understand amigos points. I just don't agree with his assumptions and the conclusions and try to show proof why.

When i say something is true, I want people to say why, prove it, and this does or doesn't follow. I don't see honest criticism as arguing, argumentative or rude.

I think critical thinking is essential and to be welcomed but it must be more then just opinion..it must include some counter proof, some research or contrary validation..even anecdotal personal experience showing otherwise has value.

I'm the biggest backer of amigo making his points...i post what i think is contrary evidence, not to win an argument but to show where I believe his theory is weakest.

If we are to believe Amigo that low vitamin d levels fights many chronic diseases then people in northern latitudes, and prison cells would have the lowest levels of chronic disease..but looking at ms, psoriasis and many cancers..the reverse is true...low D level yields more disease

Barneys formula is more then just vitamin D and many times I have said ibuprofen is essential, sufficient dosage of D essential etc... If people take only part or the formula or dosage for health reasons or personal tastes or add their own things like slippery elm bark or tumeric rather then ibuprofen or B12 etc...then its not barneys its something else..and i don't expect it to work and when it doesn't work ..I don't blame them.. I just say "I'm sorry it didn't work"...

dulane.. you said you took barneys, I might be mistaken... but I only think you took part of it..i don't think you took the ibuprofen..or the vits as suggested...

you said "Since I started the D3 last spring...my skin has gone down hill. More specifically...this fall and winter. I am not light sensitive to my way of thinking, and the sun last summer really seemed to help."

Well, you said the summer sun seemed to help..and you got worse fall and winter" ...if vitamin d doesn't help as you(or amigo) suggests...the reverse would be expected ...you would be worse in the summer and better in the winter.

I do firmly believe most who take Barneys formula with the right ingredients and dosages will get control of their psoriasis.

bj

[RichJ]

I think there is alot of merit in what Th1amigo has to say. Maybe Vit D isn't the answer for all of us.

Th1amigo isn't any more argumentative than BJ (or others of us) was when he first came here and told us he had something that was working. BJ is well aware that Barney's formula doesn't help all of us.

I have mentioned to BJ on several occassions that some of us have a very 'infectious' component to our condition.

I am one of those people. I've increased my D3 due to the success of BJ's protocol. Also because of my naturopath's sudden interest in D3. I've seen naturopaths for several years and they just jumped on that band wagon in the last year.

Since I started the D3 last spring...my skin has gone down hill. More specifically...this fall and winter. I am not light sensitive to my way of thinking, and the sun last summer really seemed to help.

But I'm going to ask my naturopath what kind of a Vit D test I just had...and ask for the D metabolite test the Marshall Protocol uses.

I am fairly certain that I am still battling with candida or another bacteria...and I need a protocol that addresses killing off these kinds of critters...which the Marshall Protocol attempts to do.

For me...if I eat a handful of cookies or other sweets, I get spots in my mouth and other damp areas. This may not be something that other folks deal with...but I do. Its like the critters take that sugar and flour and run!

Since there is still no cure for psoriasis...I think we should keep our minds open to protocols that work for some people.

In reading through some of the MP info at their website, several people said that their P improved...even tho they were treating for another condition.

People don't have to take sides...just keep your options open.

I've been sort of uninterested in what has been posted here at NPF lately...because it seems like I have tried everything and I've come to a standstill or even regressed. (At least my PA hasn't gotten worse.) Now I have something new to investigate.

Thanks for your attempts to educate us...Th1amigo.

:rolleyes:
hi dulane,
i think what you said is very interstine. this is were i got the p family from. because you all dicagree on so many things. like my family does. we all have to know what we try will not hurt us and always talk to your doc about it. we need to work togehter and not against each other. well any way. i loved being around you all but it's time for me to leave. i have to many things that i have to take care of. i just want to say by

have a good night all

richard

[Dulane]

Thanks Rich...for your concern. We aren't arguing...we are debating. I like BJ very much.

BJ,

I don't take the ibuprophen. I avoid nsaids, altho they sure work well when I used to have headaches. Since I changed my diet, drink more water and don't drink alcohol, I haven't had a headache in several years.

I also have another condition where nsaids are contraindicated. Maybe one a day wouldn't be so bad...but I just don't take it.

I do take everything else you advise, and much more that my naturopath prescribes.

My take on the Marshall Protocol Vit D issue is that some of us have other serious bacterial infections that Vit D might actually encourage continued growth of the antagonist.

I'm sure that Th1amigo would agree that the majority of people do well with naturally occuring Vit D.

There was a lady who posted last year...who had skin issues and arthritis. She was sure that she had P and PA, but most of her symptoms didn't sound like anything I was familiar with. She was terribly light sensitive, whereas most of us do better in the sunny months.

I got to know her better on another forum and I suspected lupus. But her doctors had already ruled that out. For some of these folks...just a few minutes in the light almost bring blisters to their skin, and set them back physically for several days. Many of them are housebound.

Unlike some posters here...I have this very infectious situation. I have several indicators that prove to me that sugar and foods that feed yeast are my enemy. These same foods and white sugar also feed cancers, and many AIDs and cancer patients have serious problems combating similar infestations.

Barney's formula does not address killing off yeast or other microorganisms. So for people without the infectious components...it may be the answer they are looking for.

It doesn't work for me tho. I wish it would.

I also have several symptoms that one would normally see in reactive or infectious arthritis...where a bacterium is causing the arthritis. Luckily my arthritis isn't so bad, but I have these markers that only occur in this type of arthritis.

Perhaps some of the confusion here is that many of us have more than one disease. I sort of suspect that psoriasis is secondary for me.

I know for a fact that I have been exposed to some nasty germs and fungi, due to travels and such. For instance...I stayed in a small community in South America where people were getting sick, and they discovered that iguana and lizard feces harbored bacteria that people were getting through their feet, because of tiny cuts from volcanic rock. I swam in the ocean there...I was probably introduced to it.

I was never treated for this. I also lived in a trailer that probably had black mold in it while we were building our house. That was when I first noticed P.

That is why the Marshal Protocol and other therapies might be worth investigating...especially if people (and their doctors) have tried everything else.

:rolleyes:

[Dulane]

Here is more infor on Cell Wall Deficient cell or L-form cells.

This is good stuff. Maybe not an immediate answer for P, but possibly. These CWD cells are definitley implicated in RA and other related conditions.

Good reading, anyway. It says that penicillin feeds them. That is scary!

http://bacteriality.com/2007/08/18/history/

[th1amigo]

"If we are to believe Amigo that low vitamin d levels fights many chronic diseases then people in northern latitudes, and prison cells would have the lowest levels of chronic disease..but looking at ms, psoriasis and many cancers..the reverse is true...low D level yields more disease"

That's not quite what I said, although perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm not saying that low D levels necessarily help fight disease, although it's looking like high D levels can contribute to more disease as it's being found that high levels are immunosuppressive. The CWD bacteria "feed" off it. Most studies do not look long-term nor do they measure the active metabolite (1,25-D). It's being found that people with chronic illness have a tendency to have low D levels (not always, but often). So, the medical/dietary community sees this one level and makes a conclusion to supplement based solely on this level (25 hydroxyvitamin-D, aka calciferol). They don't consider the secosteroid hormone (1,25-D).

Chronically ill patients are being found to have dysregulated D-metabolites in which the 25-D levels are low and the 1,25-D levels are elevated. The precursor is being catalyzed to its active form more quickly than normal. It's the colonization of the white blood cells by the intraphagocytic cell wall deficient bacteria that are causing this dysregulation. They are the root cause. Ingesting more Vitamin D fuels the rapid conversion. 1,25-D is a powerful secosteroid hormone which affects other hormones - elevated levels lead to symptoms, bone loss and calcification problems such as kidney stones.

So, I don't agree that "low D level yields more disease". On the contrary - it's the cell wall deficient L-form bacteria that are causing chronic disease and leading to low Vitamin D (25-D) levels, and high 1,25-D levels (which studies rarely measure). Supplementing will make things worse in the long run for people with the dysregulation - northern countries tend to be countries that have added Vitamin D to their food chain. Canada and M.S. come to mind.

Why do you feel better in the summer and worse in the winter? http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum32/1122.html

Regards.

[bjmacc]

you said.."northern countries tend to be countries that have added Vitamin D to their food chain. Canada and M.S. come to mind."

There is a proven deficit of D in northern countries...little vitamin D is added to the food chain...milk?...hardly any compared to the mega doses of D from sunlight year around in latitudes less then 35degrees. With ms...more the farther north..and interesting it also relates to where you lived as a child even if you move south later in life your ms risk still remains higher....so there your theory finds another glitch.

And what chronic diseases?...yes sarcoidosis and a few others make calcitriol and result in high calcium if D is added via sunlight or supplement...but most chronic disease patients test with low levels of D such as the canadian study on black and asians...or people in nursing homes or prisons..all low in D levels and not high as your theory suggests.

Rickets amongst black americans is on the rise...why, because at our latitudes and dark skin, they make less D then a white person..and hence their risk of rickets increases....yet, they have high levels of chronic disease...again your numbers don't add up..

Now granted, there may exist Lcell bacteria that are related to some disease. Many diseases have an unknown etiology. I won't deny that's possible and also many can have multiple diseases simultaneously where one treatment can exacerbate another disease but this is a forum on psoriasis..i can't cover every chronic disease..

Lets look at psoriasis , with a preponderance of treatment based on UVB therapy, getting summer sun ,the proven effectiveness of the intense radiation of the Dead Sea phenomena, the Vitamin D analog dovonex and not even considering the vitamin D in barneys.....it has to be obvious that increasing D levels helps for many cases. ..and it is here that the theory of wall deficient or L celled bacteria I don't believe is applicable.

bj

[th1amigo]

Well, BJ, it's obvious you and I will not agree on this, so let's agree to disagree. When I first posted, it was meant to offer people here some hope as there are people recovering from psoriasis with the marshall protocol. I will say this, it's not just sarcoidosis or psoriasis patients that are being treated with/recovering from this treatment - http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum32/1263.html

[bjmacc]

yes, i agree....each of us is on a journey of discovery and hopefully relief.

my best wishes, bj

[nesielheum]

When I first posted, it was meant to offer people here some hope as there are people recovering from psoriasis with the marshall protocol. I will say this, it's not just sarcoidosis or psoriasis patients that are being treated with/recovering from this treatment - http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum32/1263.htmlHello th1amigo,
Once again thank you for a providing some very interesting thoughts and therapy that some of the folks here may find useful in battling their psoriasis. I wish you continued success in treating your psoriasis.
In all fairness, there are groups of people that are susceptable to low and possibly deficient levels of vitamin D that can lead to such things as rickets in children and osteomalacia in older adults. Those at risk include: Infants who are exclusively breastfed; Older adults (age 50 and older); Persons with limited sun exposure (Homebound individuals, people living in northern latitudes); Persons with greater skin melanin content (darkly pigmented skin who are unable to get adequate sun exposure); Persons with fat malabsorption (Pancreatic enzyme deficiency, Crohn's Disease, Cystic Fibrosis, Sprue (Celiac disease), Liver disease, and people that have had surgical removal of part or all of the stomach or intestines). http://www.ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/vitamind.asp
Deficient levels of Vitamin D have been associated with higher incidences of colorectal cancer in adults, so this "sunshine" vitamin is not without merit for many.
As for psoriasis, other than being used as a topical (Dovonex) that slows down the rate of skin cell production, there does not seem to be any quantifiable evidence that increased levels of vitamin D will help the psoriatics condition.
The NPF is quite clear on it's view of vitamin D as a supplement. http://www.psoriasis.org/treatment/psoriasis/topicals/dovonex.php "Dovonex is not related to vitamin D found in vitamin supplements taken by mouth. These supplements should not be used to treat psoriasis. Ingesting large doses of vitamin D–even though it is sold without a prescription–can cause serious side effects."Psoriasis is certainly not a "one size fits all" disease, and therapies are as varied as the opinions of people that visit these message boards. Hopefully, in 2008, each of us will find that safe effective treatment that is right for us.
Happy New Year to you and everyone in our Psoriasis family!

[ouchyk]

Thanks for that information Tim. happy new year to you too.... :D

Karen

[bjmacc]

yes, thanks Tim..

I never knew the NPF and this forum felt that way about supplemental Vitamin D. Thats unfortunate, disappointing and inaccurate. It might have been added recently.

It really puts things in perspective for me.

and makes it all that much more of a challenge! :0)


A happy new year!! and lets make this a new inexpensive learning experience!

bj

[th1amigo]

Marshall TG: Vitamin D Discovery outpaces FDA decision making.
BioEssays Volume 30, Issue 2, Pages 173-182, February 2008
Online ISSN: 1521-1878 Print ISSN: 0265-9247
Copyright 2008 Wiley Periodicals, Inc., A Wiley Company
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/117885976/ABSTRACT

Preprint of full text:
http://TrevorMarshall.com/BioEssays-Feb08-Marshall-Preprint.pdf

[Mourningdove]

Just a comment. I think it's important to differentiate whether you are talking about Vitamin D2 or D3. D3 is what is used in topicals for psoriasis. But it's also good for your body to absorb calicium. Most foods that are "D" fortified, are fortified with D2.

[th1amigo]

Sure seems like some Vitamin D proponents may have hidden agendas $$$$$ in pushing more Vitamin D in the population....

http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_strauss/20080213.html

Like corticosteroids, perhaps this would explain why a secosteroid would provide short term relief but long-term grief...

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2008/1/prweb639651.htm

[bjmacc]

what poor title for a thread..

it's like saying..if air really bad for us?..or is food really bad for us?...is water really bad for us, are children really bad for us, are trees really bad for us...

and more conspiracy theories. I buy 2000iu of D ..a four months supply for the average person for $5.09...lol pretty cheap i'd say

[th1amigo]

yeah, you're right - or like saying ... are steroids really bad for us? or, is poison really bad for us? or, are the wrong hormones really bad for us? are chemicals really bad for us? etc...

[bjmacc]

exactly, we couldn't live without hormones, steroids or chemicals ....they are an intregral part of our daily metabolism, and essential for life...and anything in excess is toxic....including O2 and water.

one might as well title this thread...is everything really bad for us?...

[ouchyk]

I don't think anyone can retire to the south of France on my 3 dollars ( overpriced city mind you ) for the vit D gel-caps I purchased lol. :p

Three dollars that is well spent as my body is so vit D deficient ( after testing ) I'm surprised my bones were not snapping in half.... :eek: so for me three dollars for preventitive is much better than a co-pay for a cast and the extra added pain, I get enough of that with inflammatory arthritis! :o

Worth three bucks for possible extra added protection ~ You betcha! I told my daughter to add vit D to her daily vitamin as well! I'm going to sneak some into my husbands food lol...

Karen