US medical insurance and human rights

[NearDark]

i was thinking about those who live in the US and have to pay for medical treatment and rely on medical insurance to get treatment, was thinking how bad it must be for those who cant afford the treatments they need and dont have medical insurance, so basically they need to go without treatment, for me it seems that the US is always talking about the human rights of other countries but they need to look abit closer to home and realise that people living in the very land that they preach to be one of the most caring nations in world, actually infact is causing people to go through unbearable suffering because they dont have medical insurance, in my eyes everyone should have the right to medical treatment regardless of the fincancial state they are in. to me this seems like one of the biggest breach of human rights that there is. sorry to those who are very patriotic, am not having a go at the US, it just seems that people shouldn't suffer because lack of money. i think if we worked the same way in the UK then i would have moved a long time a go. i'm greatfull everyday for the NHS. I do wish you all had the same kind of medical service.

[ouchyk]

Hi,

In MA where I live in the US everyone HAS to have health insurance, some are on a sliding scale, some have it for free if they cannot afford it, and others like myself pay megabucks for an excellent plan,

I'm glad that I have such a wonderful plan...I have very few issues with my insurance co and don't mind paying at all.

Karen

[northerngal]

i was thinking about those who live in the US and have to pay for medical treatment and rely on medical insurance to get treatment, was thinking how bad it must be for those who cant afford the treatments they need and dont have medical insurance, so basically they need to go without treatment, for me it seems that the US is always talking about the human rights of other countries but they need to look abit closer to home and realise that people living in the very land that they preach to be one of the most caring nations in world, actually infact is causing people to go through unbearable suffering because they dont have medical insurance, in my eyes everyone should have the right to medical treatment regardless of the fincancial state they are in. to me this seems like one of the biggest breach of human rights that there is. sorry to those who are very patriotic, am not having a go at the US, it just seems that people shouldn't suffer because lack of money. i think if we worked the same way in the UK then i would have moved a long time a go. i'm greatfull everyday for the NHS. I do wish you all had the same kind of medical service.

I live in Ontario, Canada and we have socialized medicine and coverage. The coverage is really great but they keep exporting our doctors south of the border. So, in the past 10 yrs we've seen a definate decline in doctors availability and that impacts patients.

However, I agree with your principle of your post.

"Act local, think global". (either that on someone here was watching Idol Gives Back and had a moment of reflection :) )

[Just Ducky]

There are a lot of things this country "should" be doing for its own people..and doesnt. It isnt only health care.

[NearDark]

UK Goverment has it's faults too, am just glad Health care is not one of them.

[Ciro]

Near Dark,

The situation is a disgrace. I am from Dublin originally but have lived in Dallas for 10ish years.

The situation in MA that ouchyk descibed is certainly an exception to the rule. As you say if you cannot afford health insurance then you must go without. Over 45 million Americans of all ages fall into that catagory.

In some cases even when you have health insurance you are denied coverage by the insurance company. When I was a poor student here in the US I went without and could not get treatment for my P including facial P (not easy in your early 20's and I can honestly say made me very depressed for some time). I longed for the day when I was earning and could afford it.

That day came and I was paying tax and paying my health insurance every month. I went to see a derm and a few weeks later I got a letter in the mail from my insurance company saying that they were denying me coverage for my P as it was a "pre-existing condition"

A scandal and a disgrace, but the insurance companies have a vested interest in not paying out every time and in my case I lose out. Paying tax and health insurance and still no coverage. Dem visits and treatment are so expensive. I payed over $200 for creams once.

I agree it seems like a human rights abuse to me.

[NearDark]

Ciro,

that's a perfect example of what am talking about. people can get into the worst state of mind when they think they have no way to get help, this is one condition that cannot go without treatment, when it does it causes the worst possible suffering that i know, and that in my book is just wrong that anyone should have to suffer like that because of finances.

[Ciro]

Ciro,

that's a perfect example of what am talking about. people can get into the worst state of mind when they think they have no way to get help, this is one condition that cannot go without treatment, when it does it causes the worst possible suffering that i know, and that in my book is just wrong that anyone should have to suffer like that because of finances.


I can remember when I first got P on my face at about 20 years of age.

And while this might sound dramatic it caused me to be depressed for the first time in my life, it lasted months, I'd spend my free time in bed, not asleep just hiding from the world. I was young and in college I should have been out dating and enjoying life.

Of course in hindsight it wasn't as bad as I viewed it but for a 20 year old it had a devestating impact and in my weaker moments I just wanted it all to end.

Thankfully I don't view things like that any more, and while the system isn't perfect anywhere it is certainly broken here in my opinion.

People, good people get screwed over (hope I can say that).

[bjmacc]

Near Dark..you are right on the mark..and in the next ten years things are not going to get any easier.

The power brokers of the system have effectively postponed , derailed, interfered with any real change in the health care system,,,and why should they , they are making enormous profits

Rather then a national healhcare like canada or the uk...their push is for the government to be the bill collector for the insurance companies by mandating or forcing people to buy insurance....By actually criminalizing those who don't have it.

It will be the first time in the history of the US that the government is forcing every citizen to buy a product, and at little control of the cost. In no other area has this ever happened ...

People use the argument that car insurance is mandated....licenses are mandated...taxes are mandates... but these are completely dissimilar..you don't have to buy car insurance if you don't drive...you don't pay a tax if you don't earn...To make the analogy equivalent we would pass a law that says everyone has to buy car insurance regardless if you have a car or not...men women and children...the logic being,,, we all benefit from cars and transportation...next will it be "everyone has to buy homeowners insurance even if you don't own a house with the rational that some day you may need it..or nursing home insurance, and on and on ..making the government the bill collector for private industry rather then its regulator by controlling costs and prices which it should do.......utterly ridiculous..

This mandated health insurance concept is the biggest loss of freedom in our history..those that already have coverage don't really care..in the beginning it only effects a minority of uncovered which is how it gets passed in the first place and because it sounds ok if someone else has to do it...ultimately as more employers drop their insurance the burden falls on the people with little control of costs or profits. The vested interests have effectively redirected the focus of an irrate public away from their enormous profits and any regulation .They have propagandized the nonpayers to be the villains and the cause of our problems which is anything but the truth.

A national health care basic plan is needed...but it won't come about without much suffering by the have nots and soaring costs to the haves. When there are more healthcare have nots then haves...then it will change.

[DottieD]

Wouldn't it make a lot more sense just to extend Medicare to everyone? Perhaps those under 65 could pay a little higher premium. That's what I'm hoping will happen.
DottieD

[bjmacc]

me too dottie :0)

[Emsmom]

I have very mixed emotions on this one. I agree completely that something needs to change but I don't think the UK model is best. I lived in the UK for a few years and was very thankful to have private medical insurance. I remember friends having to wait as long as 18 months for something as simple as tubes in a young child's ears. Getting those tubes in sooner rather than later can make a real difference in the developing speech of a young child. Because of my private insurance I was able to get everything done in a timely fashion. And I have friends in both Canada and the UK now who, like me, have children with arthritis. They seem to have more trouble getting the biologics than I and others here have had for our kids. I think what we need is someone talented enough to pull the best from our system here and the best from national health plans like in the UK and to combine those into a model of care that provides for all.

Liz

[ouchyk]

I think we need to start taxing junk mail...seriously! and overpackaging, we can make items safely without going thru 63742438 layers to get to a product, not to mention my scissors get a mega-work out! and supermarkets, I know that in MA they were going to start taxing for plastic bags, we are going to start using tote bags lord knows I have a bizzilion of them. Ikea already does this, 5 cents a bag.

I like my insurance, I don't have to haggle over anything at all. Well except one time they decided to pay for Enbrel yet wouldn't pay for Bextra ( which since went off the market ) but I mean come on....how much sense did that make?! and we pay for a family plan even tho it's just DH & I who use it, granted I certainly get my monies worth but back in the day before pa ( that rhymes lol ) we never used it, yet paid and still pay for folks that have a bunch of children on a family plan, not that we mind...as I said well worth it.

oh and please does anyone know how much it was to take baseball players to congress for investigation over steriods? sometimes I just don't get it.

My daughter doesn't have insurance, she pays as she goes. Scares the h*ll out of me...Thankfully she lives in NYC where there are clinics ( thanks mikek ) and she goes to NYU dental school for dental care...

Karen

[nyoki]

The very same thing that allows the U.S. to have the best and the brightest in health care w/ the best technological and most sophisticated treatments is the same thing that keeps us from national (socialized) medicine. It's why the doctors from Canada are moving south of the border. This is where the money is. I'm not advocating it but there is even a term named for it: The Brain Drain.

I spent several years in France and can't say the medical treatment there was any better or worse than here. There have been many years (when I was younger) that I have been w/out medical insurance (including a pregnancy as a diabetic) and I've always gotten excellent care. Though this was when I lived in NYC and used the sliding scale that ouchy mentioned, though I can't remember the name of it.

[helofixer]

My beefs are that as an employed single person, I have medical insurance, but it costs me weekly and my employer a lot per month so I can get coverage (and I am very thankful for that seeing as what a trip to the emergency room can cost).

My beef is twofold. We have a problem in the USA with "undocumented" workers and persons who don't have citizenship going to the hospitals/emergency rooms and get treatment and paid prescriptions with no insurance or any way to pay the entire bill, but somehow someone pays for it (that's you and me mr and mrs taxpayer). If someone is here illegally, how do they get free health care, yet people with jobs that may not have full coverage or a good program or insurance at all get left holding the bag?

Second beef is that there are endless commercials on TV,radio,and magazines that tout medicines that can treat everything from allergies to angina, but if you don't have insurance you can expect to pay 300 dollars for a tube of ointment for your P. Yes I realize that the drug manufacturers expend a lot of time and money on research and development and getting things FDA approved, but can you really expect me to believe a 4 shots of Enbrel in the sure clicks costs $2,313.77! that's like 578.44 per 50mg. 11 dollars a milligram!
Yes I realize that the drug manufacturers have to make a profit, and answer to their stock holders, but I bet those CEO's light cigars with 100 dollar bills.
Maybe spend a little less on your marketing and have more programs like the coupons for discounted Taclonex or Enbrel's Enliven services.

[Ciro]

Helofixer,

Your post is full of misinformation about non-citizens.

First off you can be a non-citizen and still be legally in the US, contributing and bringing something just like everyone else.

As an international student I was in a car accident and while I did get treatment, I also got a very hefty hostipal bill, for what was essentially 5 stitches in the back of my head. That and the follow up visit to have them removed cost me thousands. Thousands as a non-citizen.

Also no-one will give you free prescriptions in any pharmacy I've ever visited. if you don't have insurance you'll pay through the teeth, citizen, non-citizen, legal, illegal.

I accept that some non-documented workers do receive hospital treatment and don't always pay for it. Yes that happens.

But whats the solution to that, refuse to treat them?

A society can be judged by how it treats its most vunerable members.

[helofixer]

Ciro, I am not going to argue with you about non citizens being here legally or being on a work visa and receiving health care. My beef is with those that you mentioned in your post:

"I accept that some non-documented workers do receive hospital treatment and don't always pay for it. Yes that happens."

So we reward people coming to this country illegally by giving them free health care? And we foist the rising cost of health care on the legal tax paying residents? Yeah thats fair. I need a trip to the emergency room with health insurance and my co pay can cost me 300-500 dollars, and someone who shouldn't even be here gets a freebie. That isn't right.

And then you said: "As an international student I was in a car accident and while I did get treatment, I also got a very hefty hospital bill, for what was essentially 5 stitches in the back of my head. That and the follow up visit to have them removed cost me thousands. Thousands as a non-citizen."

As you should have been, just like I would expect to pay if I was a visitor/non citizen in another country and needed care. I don't travel abroad and expect free health care, so why should anyone else?


"But whats the solution to that, refuse to treat them?"

No, I never said that, but I know they send loads of un-taxed money out of the USA back to their home countries, so they do have money, they just choose to send it elsewhere. Cut off the freebies and quit making legal TAX PAYERS deal with the burden.

"A society can be judged by how it treats its most vulnerable members."

Totally agree with that statement, but I know there are loads of US citizens that cant get proper health care because of the costs and insurance issues, but we let people who are here ILLEGALLY get what amounts to free health care. Guess we will agree to disagree on this issue.

[nyoki]

Ciro, I am not going to argue with you about non citizens being here legally or being on a work visa and receiving health care. My beef is with those that you mentioned in your post:

"I accept that some non-documented workers do receive hospital treatment and don't always pay for it. Yes that happens."

So we reward people coming to this country illegally by giving them free health care? And we foist the rising cost of health care on the legal tax paying residents? Yeah thats fair. I need a trip to the emergency room with health insurance and my co pay can cost me 300-500 dollars, and someone who shouldn't even be here gets a freebie. That isn't right.

And then you said: "As an international student I was in a car accident and while I did get treatment, I also got a very hefty hospital bill, for what was essentially 5 stitches in the back of my head. That and the follow up visit to have them removed cost me thousands. Thousands as a non-citizen."

As you should have been, just like I would expect to pay if I was a visitor/non citizen in another country and needed care. I don't travel abroad and expect free health care, so why should anyone else?


"But whats the solution to that, refuse to treat them?"

No, I never said that, but I know they send loads of un-taxed money out of the USA back to their home countries, so they do have money, they just choose to send it elsewhere. Cut off the freebies and quit making legal TAX PAYERS deal with the burden.

"A society can be judged by how it treats its most vulnerable members."

Totally agree with that statement, but I know there are loads of US citizens that cant get proper health care because of the costs and insurance issues, but we let people who are here ILLEGALLY get what amounts to free health care. Guess we will agree to disagree on this issue.

I think we're a tad bit off topic. I need these boards as well as the people on them. So please, let's not turn this into every other forum. Sorry if I offend.

PS: I tried to quote the 3 previous posts and messed up. I wasn't picking on you helofixer.

[NearDark]

i find it strange that countries can spend more on weapons and wars that kill instead of putting extra money in to health service and preserving the life of thier own citizens and giving them better quality of life.

they reckon the war in iraq is gona come to a total cost of 2 trillion, and if tax payers think most of thier money goes on the countries health service, they would be wrong.

in the UK, anyone who comes to the country is entitled to free medical treatment no matter wether they are a citizen or not, even those just on holiday for a week or two are entitled to medical treatment.

my main point in starting this post was the fact that we can goto war with countries we think are in breach of the UN's Human Rights, but if looked at closer we find that both our countries in one way or another are in breach of human rights, just not in the way that people normally hear about.

in the UK people who are alchoholics or have a drug habbit will get more help from the goverment than someone who has never smoked,drank or commited a crime, and in my books thats wrong, help those who want and deserve and need help. not those who choose to waste the gift of life they have given and rob others to feed the habbits they have. the system is messed up.

sorry if i rambled abit and i dont want to get into politics in anyway i just think we need to look closer to home and deal with our problems and faults as wealthy countries before we go picking fights with other countries.

[Ciro]

Helofixer,

I understand what you are saying, but in your original post you did say "non-citizens" and I felt I should make the distinction between legal non-citizens and illegal undocumented immigrants.

IMO the government is to blame for that fiasco. The attempts to man the borders and/or deport illegals are a joke. Its human nature that people will migrate if they know they can earn 3 or 4 or 5 times as much money. The government makes at best token efforts to deter or send home illegal immigrants. So on one hand a blind eye is turned to them yet on the other hand attempts to legalize them and get them in the system and more accountable were opposed.

It suits big business and it suits most people to have hard working, lower paid workers to build roads, mow yards, build houses, wash dishes, serve fast food etc etc

It is wrong to say that free health care is willingly handed out to these people. Treatment comes first and then comes the bill. Not everyone pays the bill, legal and illegal alike. Get them in the system and then at least they'd be more accountable.

Finally if you were abroad, most countries would offer you free health care if you were injured. You certainly wouldn't be paying several thousand for a few stitches.

The reality remains that 45 million Americans do not have health and that is a serious problem.
Another serious problem is that people with health insurance often get screwed over by insurance companies for profit. The interests of the patients aren't always put first.

[NearDark]

well i think it's about time 45 million Americans did something about it.

[ouchyk]

They are, there is a vote coming up in Nov. :) Take a close look at the platforms for healthcare and see what makes sense to you...and vote accordingly.

Presidental vote that is.

Karen

[ouchyk]

Oh yeah.....and advocacy.

If you look closely at the bills in the senate HELP committee you will see verbage in it that deals with access to treatment. What we need is for people to call, write and email their representative and get this bill out of the HELP committee and on to the floor.

You want action? make it happen. ( not you I know your in Canada ) but for those in the US, no reason not to do your part.

Karen

[ScottishDanny]

its a farce that in any developed country, people should have to pay for healthcare.

maybe if they stopped wasting ridiculous amounts of money on space travel, weapons of war and all other pointless endeavors...

[ouchyk]

Danny,

One way or another healthcare is paid for, it's not " free " in any country.

Someone is footing that bill...

We ( as in my husband and I ) don't mind paying out of pocket, we have excellent care. My husband works his butt off to keep us in it, but he doesn't mind.

In my homestate everyone has insurance. they have too. It's on a sliding scale, those who can pay do according to what they make, those who cannot afford get it for free.The jury is still way out as to whether this model will work or not. I do live in the medical mecca of Boston where we have access to incredible hopsitals, drs and research universities.

People travel from far and wide, across the globe to access the amazing dr's and facilities and don't seem to have a problem with doing so....I wonder why and I wonder who is footing the bill? this also takes place across the country where other health care facilities are.

NO ONE is ever turned away for a healthcare emergency at a public hospital.


Karen

[ouchyk]

Oh yeah and we could better spend our money....the US gvmt that is. See my comments on hearings for baseball players and I'm not going to the moon anytime soon.... :o

[Just Ducky]

What gets me the most..is even tho you have insurance, it is sometimes a fight to get them to pay for something. It is like these people behind the desks in the insurance companies, decide your treatment, rather than the doctor...and thats just wrong.

Health insurance isnt cheap. My husbands company pays in part..and we pay the other part. They have no problem taking your money..but, when they have to pay..they sometimes give you a hard time.

One thing that I like, tho...about this particular plan we have now is that we can see specialists without a referral...so when I needed a derm, I just picked one and went.

I think this country should have at least some control over these insurance companies when it comes to "who" has the say in what they will pay for. I would like to see them pay for what the doctor orders, without having you go thru a song and a dance with them.

[nyoki]

It is annoying that my docs (who've gone through a min of 12 post grad years) also have to learn how the many different insurers work so they can figure out what to rx and what treatment plan to go w/. For both Ps and PsA (and many others) a several week delay in treatment can make a huge negative difference in our health.

[Just Ducky]

They shouldnt have to base treatment on what some insurance company decides what to pay for. If the treatment is out there, you are paying your insurance bill, and the DOCTOR says you need this, then THAT is what you should get.

The problem with this country is not only then uninsured, but those who are pay thru the nose for it..and sometimes cant get the best treatment out there (according to their doctor).

[Ciro]

I agree 100% with just ducky a system that allows a person sitting at a desk with next to no knowledge of the patient or their needs, to decide if treatment is forth coming is seriously flawed.

I have and continue to be a victim of this system. I work every bit as hard as anyone else, but someone at Aetna insurance decided to deny me coverage and they probably get a bonus or incentive for denying patients/customers like me. This person has never met me, this person has never seen my psoriasis and this person will never know the impact facial psoriasis has on bad days or when it flares up. This person was not better placed to judge than my dermatologist.

Karen,

You're a great poster and from what I can see a great person. Its fantastic that your health care is satisfactory and that your husbands hard work pays for it. But the reality is that some people have to do minimum wage type work and despite working as hard as everyone else they simply cannot afford health insurance for themselves or their family. That is unfortunately a reality.

[oscarinfw]

I've got great health insurance through my corporation. But I shudder to think what happens if I get laid off (a distinct possibility) ? I'd have real trouble finding adequate health insurance if I tried to go into business for myself or work for smaller companies with limited or no health insurance coverage.

The Health insurance "safety net" does need to be much better; if this means socialized medicine for everyone, than so be it.

I think at a minimum, there needs to be mandatory health insurance deductions from paychecks to pay for Universal coverage. With healthy penalties for employers who won't collect the deductions and pass them on to Uncle Sam; this includes the illegals which is another pet peeve of mine.

Drawing and Quartering of any Company executives knowingly and continuously hiring illegal labor would eventually put a halt to illegal immigration....A bit drastic but if they really, really want to solve the illegal immigrant problem, prevent them from finding work, eventually they will stop coming and turn around and head back home.

[Ciro]

Agree with most of your points Oscar.

But as much as people complain about illegals, many of us enjoy the benefit of their hard labor.

I live in Texas and you'd be hard pushed to find me an American who will build roads, homes and offices in 100 degree plus weather. Or mow your yard so cheaply or tend your golf course. Find me an American who will work at Burger King for $6 an hour.

There are alot of illegal immigrants working alot harder than many citizens who are happy to collect benefits.

It suits big business and home owners to have cheap labor.
Its the governments responsibilty.