interesting theory

[GitOverIt]

don't know if this url will take you right to the topic of dicussion or not ....it is under general disc. and called CANDIDA--AKA YEAST by ardwinna....it was an interesting theory tho...worth thinking about


http://groups.msn.com/PsoriasisSupport/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=8345&LastModified=4675436077187372654




"Don't compromise yourself. You are all you've got" Betty Ford

[pminear]

Before I was diagnosed w/ p, my doc thought I was experiencing a yeast infection. Went through the traditional yeast inf. treatments 3 x to no avail. Finally a biopsy diagnosed p. Do I think there was a connection- well, I had no p until that experience.

[PTener]

Hi,

I have had ps for 57 years and diagnosed candida for 30 years. I see a direct correlation between the two. When my ps is bad, so is the yeast. I would love to be able to beat both, but I find that I cannot live without food. Which foods I eat have a major effect on how my ps and candida.

Peggy

[GitOverIt]

for three reasons...

1. I have been allergic or (get reactions) from sugar since the age of 12. Or at least that's when I became aware of it.....I would go from various symtoms thru the years.... getting flu like symtoms...with high fever, aching joints, headaches...then it would change to skin sores on trunk of body (not P) for a couple years...but I could control it by watching how much sugar I ate....I have had so many different signs of over consumption of sugar that I can't even remember all of them..... one other was sores in the nose........been tested for diabetes so many times...always ok....I have gone to allergists, and Internists etc but no one can figure out whats wrong...then P hit...

2.second reason is Pernicious anemia (which I have thanks to dad and ancestors). With Pernicious anemia you are lacking, missing the intrinsic factor which enables the system to get the B12 from beef (mostly) and other proteins... when that happens you get megoblastic anemia...meaning the red cells are not breaking down to a smaller size to carry oxygen to the nervous system....leading to irreparable nerve damage if not caught in time....my dads was not caught until too late ...he ended up a paralyzed from the waist down.....

so when I read what this doctor explained to Ardwinna from psoriasis support site....it sounded plausible.... Like maybe a good candidate for candida....its very hard to give up so many foods that are on the list....look at me I played games with sugar for years and years ....always trying to keep one step ahead...when I gave up cigarettes, I thought that was bad ...but bread, beef, sugar, dairy etc yikes I don't know!!! that sounds like my whole diet plan. So far I'm having good luck with just my lotions, sea salts, sun and things.... a lot of P has faded some are gone...

3. I have to add this because its another important issue: I came down with P when I was on the Atkins diet....I felt wonderful on the regimen tho, also I was on a message board and there were several others that also broke out with P.



DON'T COMPROMISE YOURSELF. YOU ARE ALL YOU'VE GOT.
Betty Ford

[DaveW]

Sally, please also read Dubious "Yeast Allergies" (http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/candida.html), especially the part where Dr. Barrett writes,Worse yet, a case has been reported of a child with a severe case of disseminated candidiasis who had been seen by a "Candida doctor" and given inadequate treatment. The report concluded that "the advice of yeast connection advocates may be inappropriate even for illnesses in which Candida is implicated."In other words, even if you do have problems with yeast, taking the advice of doctors who are apt to "diagnose" yeast problems in a lot of patients is a bad idea.

Oh, more on the subject of psoriasis, there's also an old Newsgroup post of mine (http://www.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=19991228230938.19579.00000379%40ng-cm1.aol.com) in which I discuss the merits of various psoriasis/candida "evidence" offered by a devout believer in the connection, and come away with very little.

[Allie]

Dave, I must respectfully disagree w/ur argument to some extent. Sally, is inquiring to see if anyone else had seen this connection - not if it universal. I believe, p is unique to EVERYONE. And, what works today, may not work tomorrow. Heck, I was in remission living on alcohol, potatoes, and really good homemade pizza sticks. Drinking pop all of the time and tanning 7 days a week. Came home, Mom made me eat a well balanced diet, went to a real life job & p was back w/in 3 months.

Several people have had good luck w/Atkins, Paganos, their own find & defeat diet, but no one diet works for everyone. I heard a gal speak during the conference who treated p by getting her thyroid back in line. I do believe, if we have something else going on, it can & ususally does make p worse. However, we need to find what works for us - then share that data to see if it works for anyone else.

While I am sure Sally, along w/the rest of us are thankful for your input, but I had to add this - so Sally doesn't get to discouraged if it is working for her. I say great keep it up girl!!! WHATEVER WORKS!!!

[DaveW]

If every case of psoriasis is unique, then all the money spent so far on research has been wasted. The leads coming out of the genetics research can be thrown out as worthless, for example. It's too much for me to believe, especially due to the heredity evidence, and also because most treatments work for lots of psoriatics, instead of smaller percentages. I know there is no "universal" aspect to psoriasis, but going to the opposite extreme of thinking that everyone's psoriasis is unique seems equally faulty to me.

Really, my post was to point out two things:

A) that "yeast doctors" and the advice they hand out can actually be dangerous, even though they appear to be "prescribing" supposedly-harmless stuff like dietary modifications and/or vitamins, and

B) the medical evidence that existed up to December of 1999 fails to demonstrate any sort of wide-spread connection between candida and psoriasis, except that it appears that if you've got psoriasis, you may be somewhat more susceptible to yeast infections (but not necessarily the other way around).

Allie, I'm well aware that psoriasis is highly variable, but there are lots of common aspects to it as well. 2/3rds of psoriatics report that stress makes their psoriasis worse, but I'm not one of them. Many report that alcohol makes their psoriasis worse, but I'm not one of them, either. My psoriasis also doesn't change with modifications to my diet.

Heck, psoriasis is a disease that changes all by itself, going through flare-ups and remissions for no apparent reason. A big patch on my leg went away without treatment, and without me changing anything else (that I'm aware of). Did the gal you heard at the conference actually treat her psoriasis by treating her thyroid, or was it a coincidental remission, placebo effect, or some other change in her life or lifestyle which might had done it?

Mind you, my wife's endocrinologist thinks there's a connection between autoimmune thyroid problems and psoriasis in women, so I'm not dismissing the idea, just like I don't dismiss the idea that there's a connection between psoriasis and candida. There's just very little evidence to support that last idea, so anyone getting one's hopes up over an "interesting theory" would do well to understand all the different points-of-view before embarking on such a therapy (or any therapy, as I went on and on about in my first post here), which might cost them time, money, or their health.

By the way, I've written a bunch about dietary modifications for psoriasis on my web site (http://psorsite.com/diet.html), and you might agree with at least some of what I say there.

Oh, also by the way, when you went home, did you stop tanning every day? Lots of people sunbathe for psoriasis, it's a natural way of getting UVB. Some people even respond well to UVA alone, as one gets from tanning booths. Either way, if that's what was keeping you clear, you're probably a person who can do lots of "bad" things with diet, and not have it matter so long as you're using an effective treatment. But this is all speculation.

[Allie]

In response to what I changed.....

Yes I was still tanning 6 days, not 7 days a week. However, I learned at the conference, in NC the beds have UVB lights mixed in w/the UVA for tanning indoors. However, in most other states, it is mostly UVA b/c that is considered the "better" light for long-term skin wear and tear. I believe the stopping of the UVB & reoccurance of massive amounts of stress caused my flare up... My point was I don't believe diet is something that affects my p, but I don't want to discount someone else's belief if changing their diet is working.

As for the lady with the thyroid, no she did not treat her thryoid problem as treatment for p, but had noticed her p had been getting worse, she did not believe in treatment anymore than applying lots of lotion. (as she had had p for many years & was tired of treating it). The Dr. dx her thyroid problem & as soon as that came back in line her p almost totally cleared up.

Hence why I am saying if you have something else going on in your body it "Could" affect your p. I know monthly my hormone changes can cause a flare, if I get sick - I flare, if I get overly stressed (as stress is my middle name) - my p flares. I gain weight - my p settles down, I start losing wieght - it flares. I hang out snuggling my dogs & I wake up with p on my face that then takes 2 wks to get rid of it.

I just feel, if we find something that is working, & does not cost us a lot of money to try - then it is worth it to give it a shot. A day of relief is better than a day w/o it.

[GitOverIt]

you're the only one who has ever responded and "defended" my
'what ifs'. I am not a happy camper with P and I intend to delve into anything I can to find "What works for me" ....others are happy doing their thing....whatever.

What I pointed out in my above statment was the association of similarities in MY case......such as LIVING on BEEF, while on Atkins.

Not being able to assimilate protein (beef) because of Pernicious Anemia. and the missing enzyme.

anyone ever read Ed Dewkes? I love to read his web page and opinions.....he was reviewing a book by a Dr. Connolly D.C. (doctor of Chiropractic)http://www.flakehq.com/archives/0601brie.htm

that I found very interesting (not that I will go on the diet Dr. Connolly prescribes) but here is a Quote that I fully believe and I hope its ok to print it....

"Connolly closes this chapter with an essentially correct assessment that all these therapies (anthralin, Methotrexate, steroids, Puva) are directed at the symptoms rather than the cause of Psoriasis and are therefore "doomed for eventual failure"
While such language will irritate dermotologists, regrettably Connolly is right."

So, Hey, I'm not opposed to an aspirin for a headache or any drugs for P....but thats, so far what all these drugs are doing....giving relief to P...and sometimes with just as much dangerous side effects as given by "yeast doctors" or any other Health proponent.......

So I am still searching for a lasting effect in a more natural avenue...I am taking NONI....found it very cheap on ebay
I will try the KUIKUI nut products for hair and skin...and I must say the Tree Hut Nut Butter made with Brazilian Nut Oil (found at Walmart) is the best moiturizer I have EVER used...I make my own lotion with that as a base.... the P (I never say MY P....because then it signifies you own it and it is yours...and I don't want it) is getting better every day....... something is working....

thanks again Allie, my ally...from sally :D

[GitOverIt]

my name change? anyone?...MakItGoAway (Steve) did and asked if I changed my name....I decided to after reading (Barbaras?) suggestion to someone on getting a more positive handle...
so I thought of this one because IT says just what I want it to signify.....and can be taken two ways...he-he :D

P.S. I did this after getting a very insulting reply on the coQ10 thread.

P.P.S..got the right name Steve...so edited it

[HeartFelt]

interesting read Sally. What is NONI?

[GitOverIt]

here is the original Noni thread.... I hope

http://www.psoriasis.org/forum/showthread.php?threadid=4743

http://www.noni-juice-plus.com/ ONE OF THE SITES THAT SELLS IT I don't buy from groups that are into the pyramid type of selling and this one isn't ...try ebay ..do a search

here is a biochemist findings on NONI fruit juice

http://www.iwr.com/noni-juice/xeronine.htm

just some more things I found in my search .....


http://noni_resources.tripod.com/tahiti.htm

http://www.noni-juice-plus.com/



Happy reading :D

[makeitgoaway]

http://www.psoriasis.org/forum/showthread.php?threadid=4882

On 8/20 I asked about your name change and felt ignored:(


Just kidding, i'm sure you just overlooked it (or you hate me:eek: ).:confused:

[GitOverIt]

Sorry Steve when I said Flaky Matt I meant you....I was too lazy to check on the name and thought I wouldn't get caught ..Tee- Hee:D
so!....you are paying attention.....by the way when are you going swimming...errr..... I mean fishing ....or both.....LOL

[DaveW]

Allie wrote:My point was I don't believe diet is something that affects my p, but I don't want to discount someone else's belief if changing their diet is working.If someone sends me an email describing their successes with diet, I don't try to discourage them or dismiss their ideas. However, when someone brings an "interesting theory" to a public forum (such as this one) for discussion and feedback (presumably), should we keep ours mouth shut if we know of disconfirming evidence? I'm still really new to this forum, and will admit I haven't yet had time to figure out all the unwritten social conventions here. If "don't say anything negative about ideas brought up for discussion" is one of them, I'm going to have to think twice about spending time here. Whether I stay or go is no big deal to you, of course, but I'd just like to know sooner rather than later whether I'm going to be happy or not spending my time on these posts.

I just feel, if we find something that is working, & does not cost us a lot of money to try - then it is worth it to give it a shot. A day of relief is better than a day w/o it.Unfortunately, that is precisely the attitude that snake-oil salesmen and other confidence tricksters want people to have.

Sally, you wrote that Allie is......the only one who has ever responded and "defended" my 'what ifs'....which makes it sounds like I was "attacking" your post, which it was certainly not my intent to do, and if my second post didn't clear that up, I'm not sure what else I can do. Is this another case where I've missed the social conventions here, and broken unwritten rules inadvertently?

By the way, though I have a great deal of respect and admiration for Ed Dewke, I've also been known to tell him when I think he's wrong, and why. In the bit you quote...Connolly closes this chapter with an essentially correct assessment that all these therapies (anthralin, Methotrexate, steroids, Puva) are directed at the symptoms rather than the cause of Psoriasis and are therefore "doomed for eventual failure" While such language will irritate dermotologists, regrettably Connolly is right....both Dewke and Connolly are wrong. Dewke is wrong because any halfway-decent dermatologist will tell you that the only thing the prescription drugs do is treat the symptoms. It doesn't 'irritate' them at all, except through a frustration of not being able to cure their patients (a frustration many patients share), but Dewke's wording implies that it irritates them because they (the derms) think they can treat the cause. Since nobody knows what the cause of psoriasis is, it's impossible to treat it. Any dermatologist who tells a patient that any of today's current crop of therapies can treat the "cause" of psoriasis should lose his/her license to practice medicine, either for lying to the patients, or for being incompetent.

And though I haven't read the book (though I have looked at the book's web site), from what Dewke writes, Connolly is pulling the same stunt that quacks the world over have tried with regard to psoriasis: tell their prospective suckers (I mean 'patients') that all that "science" can do for them is "repress the symptoms" (usually implying that this is a bad idea), and either state or imply that the quack in question can 'cure' the disease, or at least that their particular therapy goes directly to some vaguely-specified "root cause," with nothing but a handful of case studies and testimonials to "prove" what they say. Sometimes, people looking to make a buck on psoriatics go so far as to announce that "drugs only treat the symptoms" as if dermatologists think otherwise (or that they do know it, but are keeping it secret), and thus the quack appears to be offering new information while demonizing the medical and pharmaceutical industries. This is great for sales, but neither is true.

[makeitgoaway]

Sally-

I was just picking on you. No hard feelings.

Fishing? Any chance I get. Planning a tuna trip right now. Hopefully for the end of September or early October.:D

Nothing like fresh tuna that was caught the same day!

Catching big fish makes me very happy!:D :D :D

[chaimFL]

Dave....there are no unwritten rules here.

I would hope that people would not attack you for expressing you opinion here. I, for one, was very excited when I saw you started posting here. As a huge fan of your web page, and knowing how much time and effort you have put into educating yourself and the rest of us about psoriasis and its treatments, I would hate to see you get discouraged by what might be construed as negativity towards your dissenting posts. Of course, I would not be fair and balanced (fox news fan here) if I did not mention that your return post may have boardered the same thing you are not intrested in.
All in all, I'm glad you posted because you expressed my feelings much more elegently than I would be able to and with fact to back up your opinion.
I guess it's the nature of the human beast to get his or her feathers ruffled (I know humans don't have feathers) when people are in dissent, but please don't let that be a reason to leave.

I'm not sure if what I wrote made sense, but it was supposed to express the fact that no one is right and no one is wrong (when dealing with opinions) and therefore it's time for another group hug........ladies first please :D

[Allie]

I'm not sure if what I wrote made sense, but it was supposed to express the fact that no one is right and no one is wrong (when dealing with opinions) and therefore it's time for another group hug........ladies first please

I totally agree with this and chaim put it much more clearly than I could have ever. Thanks.

And I truly do not want you to leave Dave, as you have valid good arguments. (not that I needed to tell you that, b/c I hope you know it)

However, I don't want you to burst Sally's bubble in trying truly "inexpensive" things. Yes, snakeoil merchants want us to believe in trying anything, but they also rake us over the coals for doing so..... And this one especially struck me b/c she had seen some personal correlations in her own bout w/p and what she is investigating. I know myself I purchase certain natural products b/c I know they help w/controlling my scales. Bath & Body Works makes a dead sea salt scrub that is $17.50 a purchase & by using it my scales stay under control when used w/my meds from the Dr. However, using the sugar scrub will send my p into a horrendous flare - learned by experience. My Derm has no idea why the sugar scrub would make my p flare, but it does.

I just feel, if we find something that is working, & does not cost us a lot of money to try - then it is worth it to give it a shot. A day of relief is better than a day w/o it.

My Derm counts on this as well to keep me doing my meds, and being willing to try new ones. We never know when we pay our co-pay on medication (no refund if it reacts negative) if a medication will help or hurt our p. The belief for most people is it will help, but reading through this board you get mixed opinions and scientific arguments for and against. (Olux as an example, I love it & it works wonders for me, however, for others they cannot use it b/c they cannot take the burning sensation it causes them to have & they are out the cost. Don't know about them, but I pay $35 a can non-refundable & my salts from B&BW are 100% guarenteed I am happy or my money back.)

Please understand I know you are frustrated with snake merchants, but we still need hope for something that works for us!!! Or why do we try????

Lastly, I was not attacking what your expressed as your opinion, I was only trying to help boost Sally's moral in cont. her investigation. I am really sorry if it came across otherwise, as I would not like having my posts "attacked" either.

Group hugging, (hope it is hugged back):)

[DaveW]

Everyone: apologies all around, for that last post. I was stressed by other things, and let it come out here, directed at individuals like Allie and Sally who didn't deserve 99% of what I dished out. After a re-read, if I hadn't written the danged thing, I would think that 'DaveW' was some jerk primadonna who needs everyone to agree with him. That absolutely ain't me. I had no intention of this turning into a "pamper Dave" thread, and good-naturedly reject all attempts at such. :)

But I do have some concerns. For one thing, chaim, the main things I'm interested in are being constructive, honest, and informative. If my "return post" bordered on not being any of those things, I'd be very interested to hear why you (or anyone else here) read it some other way. I was trying to clarify the meaning of my first post to this thread, and expound upon a couple of follow-up ideas (the last paragraph just being guesswork, as admitted). I mean, I wasn't stressed during that second post (or did you mean my last, the one you replied to?), and so still think it was pretty good.

And Allie, it was not my goal to burst Sally's bubble. For one thing, it appeared to me that she was just thinking about a yeast-elimination diet, and not actually on one yet and having great success with it. Secondly, I'm of the opinion that since there are plenty of prescription drugs which fail to clear people up, dashing people's hopes, there really should be fewer bubbles to burst when it comes to untested therapies (or even therapies which have been completely discredited in the past).

In answer to your question, we try because given what we know about a therapy's good side and bad side, we come up with a level of expectation that is above zero. If we jump on every flash-in-the-pan therapy that comes along, or pay no attention to the bad side of established therapies, and thereby allow our expectations to be very high, we will be greatly disappointed over and over and over again, and sink into even a deeper depression over this stupid disease than we would if we had more realistic goals with each attempt. There is such a thing as "false hope," and I believe it to be far more devestating than a real hope which doesn't come to pass. False hopes can be blown up into far bigger bubbles.

Part of the difference I'm trying to convey here is this: "bursting someone's bubble" implies a massive "change in attitude" regarding one's hopes and dreams. I don't know Sally much at all, but her posts in this thread say to me that she heard about the candida thing, made a few correlations with her own life, and is thinking about it. That's only slightly above the expectations I had with a "Preparation-H on psoriasis" home experiment years ago, and far below the level of people who say, for example, "this theory makes so much sense, and I know that Dr. So-and-so really cares about his patients, so I gave him $1,000 for treatment this-coming Saturday, I'm so excited that I'll have clear skin at last!!!" That kind of person (only slightly exaggerated for emphasis, they do exist) definitely has a bubble to burst, and I would only try to burst it prior to them spending money (after that point, it'll probably pop itself soon enough, and adding insult to injury ain't me, either).

Before I ramble on too much longer, let me close with this: there are some therapies out there which have a fairly-reasonable expectation of "paying off" in one way or another given some amount of persistence put in by the person attempting them. A strictly self-monitored "elimination diet" comes to mind, since after working it, a person will be able to say, for example, "green olives, pizza, and clams make my psoriasis flare," or they'll be able to say, "nothing I tried had any effect on my skin, so I think I'm free to eat what I want, yay!" A win-win situation, in my opinion, no matter what the outcome, if the person works the diet systematically and honestly.

In that sort of case, I'm more than happy to offer morale boosters and other support towards the effort, mostly because I believe in the "theory" behind it (that psoriatics sometimes have problems with foods for unknown reasons), and the payoff - either a list of foods you should probably avoid or some knowledge that diet isn't your problem - exists for everyone.

Unfortunately, again in my opinion, yeast-busting diets, or Pagano, or other mainly one-size-fits-all diets don't offer such a win-win outcome. If your psoriasis goes away, and you slack off on the diet, the proponents of them will tell you you've got to go back on nearly full-throttle, and cut out entire grocery-store aisles of food. (Or else you're afraid to go off the diet, and are stuck with a severely-restricted menu for the rest of your life.) If your psoriasis doesn't go away, the proponents will often say it's your own fault, for not following the diet strictly enough, which is tough to do when you're starving. These diets are also based on "theories" which often go against what we know about basic anatomy and physiology, giving us no good reason to believe they'll work in the first place. I have a hard time lending support towards attempts at these things, since my own level of expectation for them is pretty low.

And just to be clear again, I didn't see Sally's OP as something other than a request for information about the yeast thing. Had it been an obvious "I'm having a hard time with this diet, help!" post, I wouldn't have posted what I did, since it definitely would have been a big downer and not constructive at all.

By the way, the most impressive thing I've ever read about someone trying various dietary modifications for psoriasis is posted on my own site: Terry's Experiences (http://psorsite.com/docs/terry.html). Keep in mind that I don't agree with everything that Terry has written in regards to some of the theories he talks about, but I don't dispute that he's discovered foods which aggravate his psoriasis.

Hope all the above helps to clear the air.